What are the Vintage Correct Late '60's CBS Strat Headstock Dimensions?

[sthebluesman]

I made a very interesting discovery recently while I was ordering a custom made Hendrix style neck similar to his Woodstock Strat from Musikraft. I was going to use either Musikraft or Warmoth because of their Fender licensing. I wanted to be sure I had the most accurate vintage style CBS big headstock dimensions. During the process, I asked one of their salesmen about the dimensions of the headstock. I currently have two reverse CBS headstock necks from Nash but I wasn't sure if they were exact replicas because of the Fender licensing thing. I'm not sure who makes their necks. During the conversation, he said that a vintage Strat collector had recently ordered a neck but requested it be built using the "real" vintage correct dimensions. He said the real dimensions extend the headstock past the nut by another .40" past the current Musikraft dimensions. Musikraft now has that as an option for their necks.

When he said that, a lightbulb went off. Jimi's and other vintage CBS headstocks always looked so big to me and I couldn't tell why. When I was deciding where to place the string tree on my Nash neck, it appeared in photos to be more adjacent to the first tuning peg than the second tuning peg. When I put it there, it was way too close to the nut and there was so much upward pressure on the nut that the threads would not hold it in. I had to move it back to the second tuning peg to work. But, with an extended headstock, that makes perfect sense. The string tree would work still even being .40" closer to the nut and almost adjacent to the first tuning peg. The distance between tuning pegs is approximately .625". Also, it gives your hand ample space by the nut and makes it easier to do the Jimi "behind the nut" G and D string bends. It makes the strings a little longer, especially the wound strings which do sound better (subjective, but I like it) the longer they are.

Anyone out there have any experience with those vintage CBS big headstock dimensions? If you do want to specify that option, put it in the comments section of your order as the "extended version." The new neck is also going to have the vintage correct small frets and a veneer rock maple cap on roasted maple. I may regret veering from vintage rock maple neck wood but then I'll just order another one later on.

 

[SpeedKing]

I bought a Musikraft neck myself a few years back. One piece maple with skunk stripe and walnut plug, CBS headstock, 21vintage frets etc. I basically asked for a replica of Blackmore's 4 bolt neck on his early '71.

I didn't have to specify anything in regard to the 'size' of the headstock and as far as I can see comparing it with a MIM cs70 and a MIJ St72 it looks to have the same dimensions... but maybe they're all incorrect ... or Fender themselves changed the shape at the start of the '70s!

I think when you're looking at the placement of the string tree and what works in terms of string pressure etc you need to remember that the height of the tree has a huge bearing on that. A taller tree will exert less pressure and enable it to be fitted closer to the nut. That said Jimi's tree on the pic above is very close to the nut in comparison to other '67/'68/'69s (Blackmore's black '68 maple cap for example) and this was copied on the Custom Shop replica of Jimi's white maple cap of a few years ago which likewise had the tree very close to the nut.

 

[sthebluesman]

I bought a Musikraft neck myself a few years back. One piece maple with skunk stripe and walnut plug, CBS headstock, 21vintage frets etc. I basically asked for a replica of Blackmore's 4 bolt neck on his early '71.

I didn't have to specify anything in regard to the 'size' of the headstock and as far as I can see comparing it with a MIM cs70 and a MIJ St72 it looks to have the same dimensions... but maybe they're all incorrect!

I think when you're looking at the placement of the string tree and what works in terms of string pressure etc you need to remember that the height of the tree has a huge bearing on that. A taller tree will exert less pressure.

Yes, I was just shopping for string trees and I was glad to see they have both short and tall spacers. The tall one would work and there still probably isn't a good reason to put it that close to the nut anyway. All of the other Strats are adjacent to the second tuner. Maybe it was a Jimi thing. He did some weird stuff at times like wind his wound E string on the tuner the opposite direction. As far as the headstock shape goes, I sure hope it doesn't look stupid. It could be completely wrong. I'm looking at photos of Jimi's Woodstock Strat and it looks like it's not out too far from the nut. Oh well, live and learn. How did your neck turn out overall? Did you accomplish what you were aiming for?

 

[SpeedKing]

Oh yes. It's thing of beauty!

Great fretwork and beautiful wood and I needed to do nothing save drill the 4 holes to fix it to the body (since I wanted a perfect alignment and that's always best done while fitting to the actual body it's going on so I ordered it without pre-drilled fixing holes) and the 12 small holes to fit the 'F' tuners and the small 1 for the Pure Vintage string tree.

I also ordered it without a nut but if I were to order another I'd ask Musikraft to supply and fit the nut as I now have a great deal of respect for their work and it was in the end a lot of fuss to get the nut sorted independently.

 

[kelia]

For me , Warmoth are great for a Pre CBS but their CBS headstock are way off and on the ugly side .
As for Musikraft , there is a thread here somewhere where a member blended and image of
a 1969 headstock over his Musikraft picture and the Musikraft was longer so it turned me off for my BOG project
and went another route.

 

[Intune]

I’ve only had 2 Musikraft necks, both within the last 1 or so. A pre-cbs strat and 60’s pbass neck. The headstock shape on the strat was really bad, really sharp and then overly sanded at the same time.

The pbass headstock shape look great but after 10-15 coats of aged nitro, 3 weeks cure time I found a issue when wet sanding. The face of the headstock had a slow ripple effect. I could see it even before wet sanding in the reflection. Started wet sanding anyway and instantly burned through the 3 high spots perfectly spaced apart vertically from the nut to headstock ball!!

Stripped the finish back and had to level the actual headstock face with 320 and started over. Couldn’t match just the headstock perfectly so the whole neck got stripped back to square one. Pretty annoying!

Here’s the strat neck headstock shape compared to CS strat. Then a Allparts neck to the same CS strat.

The super sharp edge but wonky looking and crooked. I know they are somewhat hand down like fender but once you notice how wonky it is it’s hard not to see it.

For me it’s Allparts, just way more consistent

 

[sthebluesman]

Oh yes. It's thing of beauty!

Great fretwork and beautiful wood and I needed to do nothing save drill the 4 holes to fix it to the body (since I wanted a perfect alignment and that's always best done while fitting to the actual body it's going on so I ordered it without pre-drilled fixing holes) and the 12 small holes to fit the 'F' tuners and the small 1 for the Pure Vintage string tree.

I also ordered it without a nut but if I were to order another I'd ask Musikraft to supply and fit the nut as I now have a great deal of respect for their work and it was in the end a lot of fuss to get the nut sorted independently.

I understand about the nut. I'm having them install a slotted one but they will not do any final adjustments so I will need to do that. I don't like getting nuts made either so hopefully all I need to do is adjust the height. I had the four mounting holes drilled and am glad I did because after I decided on roasted maple, I started reading about real issues of cracking when drilling the holes. I'm pretty nervous about cracking it. I went with the vintage Kluson because I have them on my other neck and will remove them and put them on the new Musikraft neck. I now wish I would have gone with the F Style tuners and bought some new ones because those mounting screws are staggered and mine are in-line so maybe more chance of splitting between the holes.

 

[sthebluesman]

I’ve only had 2 Musikraft necks, both within the last 1 or so. A pre-cbs strat and 60’s pbass neck. The headstock shape on the strat was really bad, really sharp and then overly sanded at the same time.

The pbass headstock shape look great but after 10-15 coats of aged nitro, 3 weeks cure time I found a issue when wet sanding. The face of the headstock had a slow ripple effect. I could see it even before wet sanding in the reflection. Started wet sanding anyway and instantly burned through the 3 high spots perfectly spaced apart vertically from the nut to headstock ball!!

Stripped the finish back and had to level the actual headstock face with 320 and started over. Couldn’t match just the headstock perfectly so the whole neck got stripped back to square one. Pretty annoying!

Here’s the strat neck headstock shape compared to CS strat. Then a Allparts neck to the same CS strat. View attachment 595266 View attachment 595267

The super sharp edge but wonky looking and crooked. I know they are somewhat hand down like fender but once you notice how wonky it is it’s hard not to see it. View attachment 595268 View attachment 595269

For me it’s Allparts, just way more consistent

Is that roasted maple? Did you have any cracking issues when you installed all of the hardware? The headstock looks a little thick to me. But, Fender wasn't consistent back then either. I have a 1962 and 1964 vintage neck and the headstock thickness is not the same. The 1964 is thicker than the 1962 but they both have pretty sharp edges around the perimeter of the headstock. I guess we just have to realize that each neck has it's own personality and quirks which, if they are not too far out of the ordinary, when handmade make each one unique. The 1962 is on the bottom.

 

[guitarchaeologist]

I seem to recall that the early CBS headstocks were smaller than the post-1969 versions, but I can't seem to find that in writing anywhere.
Am I imagining that memory?????

 

[Intune]

No cracking at all. It was extremely hard to drill that pilot holes for the screws though. I actually broke the string tree screw head off flush with the headstock just trying to remove the screw. It went in to problem but removing it to do the finale cut and polish sheered the head right off. Had to drill out the screw.

So yeah it’s definitely a lot harder wood then your standard maple neck. Yes I have lots of fenders with inconsistencies with the headstock shapes but this Musikraft takes the cake for wonkiness. I realize you already chose Musikraft so I’m sure yours will be okay. I was informed that during the pandemic, lots of new employees were hired and things got out of hand in the QC department. That’s exactly when I ordered that neck. They said they went through many changes since then.

 

[sthebluesman]

No cracking at all. It was extremely hard to drill that pilot holes for the screws though. I actually broke the string tree screw head off flush with the headstock just trying to remove the screw. It went in to problem but removing it to do the finale cut and polish sheered the head right off. Had to drill out the screw.

So yeah it’s definitely a lot harder wood then your standard maple neck. Yes I have lots of fenders with inconsistencies with the headstock shapes but this Musikraft takes the cake for wonkiness. I realize you already chose Musikraft so I’m sure yours will be okay. I was informed that during the pandemic, lots of new employees were hired and things got out of hand in the QC department. That’s exactly when I ordered that neck. They said they went through many changes since then.

Wow, that is cringe worthy. I would have broken into a cold sweat when that screw snapped. Sounds very hard. I just went through the selection process on the Warmoth site to see what the options were and they are pretty good but the Musikraft site let me fine tune it even more with a veneer maple cap on the roasted neck wood. I'm curious to try the old vintage size frets again after using big frets forever. These will be SS so they will last. The pandemic was a real struggle to survive. I think they are back to normal but this is the first neck I have ever ordered from anyone. They were pretty receptive. I called on a Friday afternoon after they had closed and still got a call back that afternoon. Scott Smith was very helpful because there were some features I could not decide on. And, I made a slight change to the order a week later and they made it and didn't charge a change fee of $25. It was just the color of the dots on the neck. Another choice that I liked was getting a compound radius from 7-1/4" to 9-1/2" which Warmoth doesn't offer.

 

[Intune]

Wow, that is cringe worthy. I would have broken into a cold sweat when that screw snapped. Sounds very hard. I just went through the selection process on the Warmoth site to see what the options were and they are pretty good but the Musikraft site let me fine tune it even more with a veneer maple cap on the roasted neck wood. I'm curious to try the old vintage size frets again after using big frets forever. These will be SS so they will last. The pandemic was a real struggle to survive. I think they are back to normal but this is the first neck I have ever ordered from anyone. They were pretty receptive. I called on a Friday afternoon after they had closed and still got a call back that afternoon. Scott Smith was very helpful because there were some features I could not decide on. And, I made a slight change to the order a week later and they made it and didn't charge a change fee of $25. It was just the color of the dots on the neck. Another choice that I liked was getting a compound radius from 7-1/4" to 9-1/2" which Warmoth doesn't offer.

Yes that’s exactly why I chose Musikraft over Warmoth. Musikraft just has way more options to fit what I wanted done.

 

[possumkiller]

I made a very interesting discovery recently while I was ordering a custom made Hendrix style neck similar to his Woodstock Strat from Musikraft. I was going to use either Musikraft or Warmoth because of their Fender licensing. I wanted to be sure I had the most accurate vintage style CBS big headstock dimensions. During the process, I asked one of their salesmen about the dimensions of the headstock. I currently have two reverse CBS headstock necks from Nash but I wasn't sure if they were exact replicas because of the Fender licensing thing. I'm not sure who makes their necks. During the conversation, he said that a vintage Strat collector had recently ordered a neck but requested it be built using the "real" vintage correct dimensions. He said the real dimensions extend the headstock past the nut by another .40" past the current Musikraft dimensions. Musikraft now has that as an option for their necks.

When he said that, a lightbulb went off. Jimi's and other vintage CBS headstocks always looked so big to me and I couldn't tell why. When I was deciding where to place the string tree on my Nash neck, it appeared in photos to be more adjacent to the first tuning peg than the second tuning peg. When I put it there, it was way too close to the nut and there was so much upward pressure on the nut that the threads would not hold it in. I had to move it back to the second tuning peg to work. But, with an extended headstock, that makes perfect sense. The string tree would work still even being .40" closer to the nut and almost adjacent to the first tuning peg. The distance between tuning pegs is approximately .625". Also, it gives your hand ample space by the nut and makes it easier to do the Jimi "behind the nut" G and D string bends. It makes the strings a little longer, especially the wound strings which do sound better (subjective, but I like it) the longer they are.

Anyone out there have any experience with those vintage CBS big headstock dimensions? If you do want to specify that option, put it in the comments section of your order as the "extended version." The new neck is also going to have the vintage correct small frets and a veneer rock maple cap on roasted maple. I may regret veering from vintage rock maple neck wood but then I'll just order another one later on. View attachment 595204

I will get back with you tomorrow with a template I have. It's on my laptop.

Basically all the aftermarket and even Fender necks are a bit off. One thing you'll notice on the vintage CBS necks is a longer distance of strings from the nut to the tuner posts. And the tuners are closer to the edge of the headstock.

I've had two different Musikraft CBS necks and both of the headstocks were shaped a bit different and the tuner holes too close to the nut. Also, if you plan on fitting the modern F tuners make sure you tell them you want 10mm holes with wider spacing between them. Their F tuner hole option is too close together and makes the cover plates overlap and having to force in the posts which makes for really stiff tuners. They also won't do 7mm dots. But they are the only one that will do a proper veneer fretboard.

Allparts is modeled on a very late 70s or early 80s headstock like the Japanese Fenders. The curve between the ball end and the logo area is really wide and not as tight as the original shape. They also use pre-cbs 12th fret dot spacing and dot size.

The modern Fender shape is almost right. The transition between the nut and low E tuner can vary. On Mexican models it's a big rounded hump which is wrong. A lot of the USA ones use this as well but I have seen some with less of a hump. I've seen a couple of custom shop guitars with the proper straight angle.

The other main thing is how a vintage CBS neck always looks longer than a modern one. I think when they made the template maybe they included the space for the nut instead of starting from the end of the nut.

I had this one custom made from my own template.

 

[possumkiller]

During the conversation, he said that a vintage Strat collector had recently ordered a neck but requested it be built using the "real" vintage correct dimensions. He said the real dimensions extend the headstock past the nut by another .40" past the current Musikraft dimensions. Musikraft now has that as an option for their necks.

This is strange to me because I had an email conversation with Jim and gave him all my information and measurements that I collected to show how the vintage CBS headstock measures compared to their template and if they could do one for me based on the vintage dimensions. He flat out told me that they made it that way for 30 years with no complaints and they weren't going to change it. But yes, it seems that all the modern CBS necks have taken out a slice between the nut and the first tuner but the Musikraft version was the most compacted. If they are willing to build a vintage spec version now, I may have to start a new partscaster project...

This is the hump I was talking about behind the low E tuner. A vintage 69 compared to the Fender modern template. The modern one has a huge round hump more like a Telecaster bass headstock.


These are my Musikraft necks. Note how short the distance is between the nut and tuner. Also note how the low E string is angled because the tuners are too far from the headstock edge. The vintage headstocks almost all have the string tree and and the hump of the F in the decal lined up with the A tuner. On vintage guitars, this leaves a bit of space between the F and the rear edge of the headstock. On the Musikraft there is no space.


This is the template I came up with for mine. I looked up as many vintage CBS guitars as I could and got the most common shape. There are definitely variations here and there but this shape is by far the most common. Also, ignore the tuner hole diameter on this. The holes are scaled for 10mm but I was doing something different. The modern F tuners take a 10mm hole but the vintage ones did not. Schaller didn't start making F tuners until the early 70s. From late 67 into the first half of the 70s, F tuners were made in the US and used vintage size holes. So this means the outer flange on the bushing is smaller on vintage models than the modern ones. My solution was a two step hole but 10mm on the back to accommodate the modern F tuner and vintage size on front to use the smaller vintage size bushings.

 

[possumkiller]

I know it's an old thread but if you check the Musikraft page for their CBS neck, they have changed all the photos to their new shape. Which looks like they used the info I gave them. Which is fine and why I sent it to them to begin with. I just wish they hadn't taken it as some kind of personal attack when I emailed them because I wanted to order it from them. But it looks like my future necks will be ordered from musikraft again. The only spec they still don't budge on is 7mm dots option. Which is also ok. There really isn't much difference between 6.35mm and 7mm without looking closely.

 

[sthebluesman]

I couldn't notice the difference in the photos. I never really looked at them in the past. You have a good eye. They are not the best photos. I do know that the two Musikraft necks I bought were the best things I ever did for my Strats. I put on my 1964 Strat and it was much better than the vintage neck. I copied the dimensions of the 1964 neck and it came out perfectly. The hot tip is to go back to the vintage sized small Fender frets which improved the intonation 100%. I went with stainless steel because I wear out frets so quickly. I have been playing hard and have not noticed any wear yet. The roasted maple is great sounding. I did have a cracking problem at the four mounting screw holes but I am pretty sure the vintage 1964 screws are larger than modern screws. I will verify that soon when I get a set of modern screws for another neck I ordered for a friend. I will compare them on my YT channel Millstap if there is a significant difference.

 

[possumkiller]

I couldn't notice the difference in the photos. I never really looked at them in the past. You have a good eye. They are not the best photos. I do know that the two Musikraft necks I bought were the best things I ever did for my Strats. I put on my 1964 Strat and it was much better than the vintage neck. I copied the dimensions of the 1964 neck and it came out perfectly. The hot tip is to go back to the vintage sized small Fender frets which improved the intonation 100%. I went with stainless steel because I wear out frets so quickly. I have been playing hard and have not noticed any wear yet. The roasted maple is great sounding. I did have a cracking problem at the four mounting screw holes but I am pretty sure the vintage 1964 screws are larger than modern screws. I will verify that soon when I get a set of modern screws for another neck I ordered for a friend. I will compare them on my YT channel Millstap if there is a significant difference.

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the quality of their necks. The two I ordered were the best quality aftermarket necks I've played. And their ordering process has always been straightforward and painless. I was only trying to help them get more vintage accurate dimensions for the CBS neck and the reaction was a bit odd to me. Definitely nothing to stop me from ordering again. I love their necks and wish they offered finishing services again.

 

[killisnoo]

This is strange to me because I had an email conversation with Jim and gave him all my information and measurements that I collected to show how the vintage CBS headstock measures compared to their template and if they could do one for me based on the vintage dimensions. He flat out told me that they made it that way for 30 years with no complaints and they weren't going to change it. But yes, it seems that all the modern CBS necks have taken out a slice between the nut and the first tuner but the Musikraft version was the most compacted. If they are willing to build a vintage spec version now, I may have to start a new partscaster project...

This is the hump I was talking about behind the low E tuner. A vintage 69 compared to the Fender modern template. The modern one has a huge round hump more like a Telecaster bass headstock.
View attachment 595473

These are my Musikraft necks. Note how short the distance is between the nut and tuner. Also note how the low E string is angled because the tuners are too far from the headstock edge. The vintage headstocks almost all have the string tree and and the hump of the F in the decal lined up with the A tuner. On vintage guitars, this leaves a bit of space between the F and the rear edge of the headstock. On the Musikraft there is no space.
View attachment 595475
View attachment 595476
This is the template I came up with for mine. I looked up as many vintage CBS guitars as I could and got the most common shape. There are definitely variations here and there but this shape is by far the most common. Also, ignore the tuner hole diameter on this. The holes are scaled for 10mm but I was doing something different. The modern F tuners take a 10mm hole but the vintage ones did not. Schaller didn't start making F tuners until the early 70s. From late 67 into the first half of the 70s, F tuners were made in the US and used vintage size holes. So this means the outer flange on the bushing is smaller on vintage models than the modern ones. My solution was a two step hole but 10mm on the back to accommodate the modern F tuner and vintage size on front to use the smaller vintage size bushings.
View attachment 595478
View attachment 595479

Hello Possumkiller, I am amazed at all the knowledge you bring to this topic.
If you do Facebook, please join the CBS Fender Stratocaster 1965-1969 page.

 

[possumkiller]

Hello Possumkiller, I am amazed at all the knowledge you bring to this topic.
If you do Facebook, please join the CBS Fender Stratocaster 1965-1969 page.

I didn't know such a thing existed. I will look for it.

 

[langstoneight]

extremely funny how people people consider MR and WM headstocks to be "way off" or "ugly". They are good enough for me.

Warmoth "clay" dots look really cheap and fake. I wish they would offer vulcanized fibre board ones.

Also stop charging for 12" fingerboard radius and start offering the concersion scale neck with 21 Frets and a regular heel edge.