Transition logos...and dates.

[Bazz Jass]

The recent posting here of an OCT 64 neck strat with spaghetti logo got me scratching my head to think if that was too late, then pretty quickly found this example (also a custom colour):

http://www.hi-guitars.com/VG2564.html

But then there are many earlier neck dates with transition logos. September say:

http://www.hi-guitars.com/VG2770.html

One can never assume with Fender, but if the switch was made to transitional logo at some point, one would think "that's that", not swapping back and forward between the old and new logos.

I might be argued that if there were spaghetti logos on OCT 64 necks, then no transition logos were used until at least then, with older dated necks being taken off the rack to assemble a guitar post OCT 64.

 

[Bazz Jass]

I've been roundly poo-pooed for sharing this hypothesis here, but it seems to make more and more sense to me. From Tom Wheeler's book, referencing Richard Smith:

 

[Stratwrangler]

I've been roundly poo-pooed for sharing this hypothesis here, but it seems to make more and more sense to me. From Tom Wheeler's book, referencing Richard Smith:

View attachment 398085

I can completely see your logic with this , it makes as much sense as the theory of them all just being chucked in a big box and used as and when like the neck plates .
You would think bringing in a new style they would use the old ones First not just a big jumble of mixed decals but as we all know anything is possible from that era .

 

[Mipstoo]

There are two questions we need to ask ourselves... (many more, but start with these two )

• When was the logo applied? At what time during the process?

As we can see on this picture from the mid-60's, it was done on an assembled neck with tuners, nut, frets and dots installed, but probably not yet when the guitar was assembled. The nut appears to be blank however... No?

• When did the actual logo change take place?

It's possible that the newer decal was only used when CBS took over. That parts sat in a bin, or later just stacked, and were used in batches or selected based on the requirements. Special orders with regards to size for example. Don't forget that production numbers were high during these years, the business was booming, so they made a lot.



So, one would suspect that a neck from October '64 always had a Transitional logo and a January '64 neck always a Spaghetti logo, but if the logo was applied later in the process and not at the same time the neckdate was stamped , it could show inconsistencies.

As we have seen here:


Or can see here:

 

[Bazz Jass]

As we have seen here:
View attachment 398167 View attachment 398166

Or can see here:
View attachment 398168 View attachment 398169

I think this particular example would be a classic case of a neck waiting around to be ordered perhaps....size "A" is not for most!

 

[Mipstoo]

I think this particular example would be a classic case of a neck waiting around to be ordered perhaps....size "A" is not for most!

Yes. Exactly my point.

But it's a very fine guitar, in original Olympic White.

 

[Stratwrangler]

Yes. Exactly my point.

But it's a very fine guitar, in original Olympic White.

Very interesting thank you

So are there any examples of early 65 stamped necks with spaghetti decal on them in existence you know of or was it phased out completely by the end of 64 ? Seeing as there is Nov 64 necks with spaghetti is it possible to have a Jan 65 neck with it ?.

 

[Bazz Jass]

Yes. Exactly my point.

But it's a very fine guitar, in original Olympic White.

The thing that makes me doubt Smith's theory somewhat, is the pot dates. If you study enough strats, which I know you have, you see the pot dates are generally quite close to the neck date. You get a transition logo neck date of SEPT 64 and the pots are close to this, maybe a month earlier. You get a spaghetti logo on a NOV 64 and the pots are right there with it. Then a FEB 65 neck with transition logo and the pots are dated early 65.

Not conclusive of course, but you might hope, if you were trying to prove a theory, that transitional logo strats would tend to mostly have later pot dates, but this doesn't seem to be the case. (Yep, I realise, could be old stocks of pots etc).

Tricky stuff this strat detective work!

 

[Mipstoo]

The thing that makes me doubt Smith's theory somewhat, is the pot dates. If you study enough strats, which I know you have, you see the pot dates are generally quite close to the neck date. You get a transition logo neck date of SEPT 64 and the pots are close to this, maybe a month earlier. You get a spaghetti logo on a NOV 64 and the pots are right there with it. Then a FEB 65 neck with transition logo and the pots are dated early 65.

Not conclusive of course, but you might hope, if you were trying to prove a theory, that transitional logo strats would tend to mostly have later pot dates, but this doesn't seem to be the case. (Yep, I realise, could be old stocks of pots etc).

Tricky stuff this strat detective work!

Again, important question to ask would be, at what moment in the process would the pickguard be assembled... But I agree, most pot codes are more or less in line with the neck dates. Even for the Olympic White A neck mentioned above, the neck is a January 64, the potcodes are from February 64, still it has a transitional logo...

 

[Bazz Jass]

Again, important question to ask would be, at what moment in the process would the pickguard be assembled...

Good point! This example from HI Guitars has OCT 64 neck, transitional logo, with pots and pickups dated JULY 64:

www.hi-guitars.com/VG2564.html

 

[Stratwrangler]

Again, important question to ask would be, at what moment in the process would the pickguard be assembled... But I agree, most pot codes are more or less in line with the neck dates. Even for the Olympic White A neck mentioned above, the neck is a January 64, the potcodes are from February 64, still it has a transitional logo...

Sorry if you think I'm asking stupid questions , but would that suggest then that the guitar was mostly assembled and put to one side and then the decal applied just prior to final set up and finishing off then later in the year ?
What I mean is I can see the necks being stamped and stacked but if it was assembled late enough to have a transition logo why would it have such an early scratch plate assembly as well ?.

 

[ta6rma]

I've been roundly poo-pooed for sharing this hypothesis here, but it seems to make more and more sense to me. From Tom Wheeler's book, referencing Richard Smith:

View attachment 398085

That would make perfect sense to me, my Strat has a Nov 64 neck and Dec 64 pickups but a 5 patent number transition logo (mid 65?)

 

[Mipstoo]

Well, when reconstructing the timeline from pictures, the logo application is one of the final steps of the process. While the stamping of the date on the neck happened fairly early in the process, even before the shaping of the neck.
Which could explain the earlier neck dates with later logo's but makes it more difficult to explain the earlier logos with later neck dates.

 

[Nutone]

Here's a couple of pics of my transitional era strat with Dec 63 neck date and transition logo.

 

[sikoniko]

the funny thing about memories is they start to drift over time and are biased based on our own perception of events...

Along with the switch to the transition logo (allegedly around October of 64), Fender made the transition to pearl dot inlays around November of '64.

According to Fender's website, The CBS acquisition took effect on Jan. 5, 1965. According to internet sites, Leo stayed on as an 'external' consultant until early - to mid '69.

I don't know laws back in '65, but I can tell you, based on my own current experience in watching a company get acquired, that until the effective date of acquisition, the purchasing company has little to no involvement in the activities of the company being sold. Until the deal is signed, there are any number of reasons why negotiations could fall through, so it would be silly to let anyone tell you how to run your business.

Furthermore, the first six months or so are really about integration of the acquired company into the acquiring company. So I highly doubt that CBS had any impact on Fender's change to the pearl dots or the transition logo. Leo was highly frugal and used every piece of stock he could until supply diminished, which is why we can see such variance in fender models during a transition period.

Therefore, it's highly likely the first change to the stratocaster we see from CBS is the bigger headstock. It is also possible that Fender had already started experimenting with the idea before CBS started making many decisions that impacted the production of the guitars. The bigger headstock would require different templates, training, and possibly tooling to make that transition.

That's my 2 cents from the sidelines.

 

[Parksie]

the funny thing about memories is they start to drift over time and are biased based on our own perception of events...

Along with the switch to the transition logo (allegedly around October of 64), Fender made the transition to pearl dot inlays around November of '64.

According to Fender's website, The CBS acquisition took effect on Jan. 5, 1965. According to internet sites, Leo stayed on as an 'external' consultant until early - to mid '69.

I don't know laws back in '65, but I can tell you, based on my own current experience in watching a company get acquired, that until the effective date of acquisition, the purchasing company has little to no involvement in the activities of the company being sold. Until the deal is signed, there are any number of reasons why negotiations could fall through, so it would be silly to let anyone tell you how to run your business.

Furthermore, the first six months or so are really about integration of the acquired company into the acquiring company. So I highly doubt that CBS had any impact on Fender's change to the pearl dots or the transition logo. Leo was highly frugal and used every piece of stock he could until supply diminished, which is why we can see such variance in fender models during a transition period.

Therefore, it's highly likely the first change to the stratocaster we see from CBS is the bigger headstock. It is also possible that Fender had already started experimenting with the idea before CBS started making many decisions that impacted the production of the guitars. The bigger headstock would require different templates, training, and possibly tooling to make that transition.

That's my 2 cents from the sidelines.

Excellent post

 

[TomH8]

I’ve had two 64 Strats (still have one). April neck date has spaghetti logo. October neck date had transition (and clay dots still)