Prewired Harness Supplier selling bogus PIO caps in their harnesses

dirocyn

Most Honored Senior Member
Jan 20, 2018
7,490
Murfreesboro, TN
I checked the Orange Drops and the 715 series @ .022uF was closer to $150 plus shipping. Could you send me the link to what you found on the site? I might be missing a filter somwhere.
I hadn't looked specifically at the Cornell Dubilier 715 series previously. You're right, for that series it's 151 for 100, from Mouser. Some of the 716 series are $1.00 each at this quantity.

I guess there's been some inflation since last time I looked, or else I was looking at a different type.
 

Eric_G

Senior Stratmaster
Jan 10, 2021
3,922
Quebec
But...you can only access that form from a link on that TGP thread. It isn't on the 920D website...and there are still harnesses out at Sweetwater with the fake PIO caps. I would say good faith isn't really being shown by 920D.
I do not disagree with you; I was simply putting the link here so that if any of our members didn't follow the TPG thread would be informed that they may now be able to recover the cost of the harness they bought.
 

Eric_G

Senior Stratmaster
Jan 10, 2021
3,922
Quebec
Legally speaking, intent can be inferred. Anything that you do on purpose is intended, whether you intend the consequences or not. Whoever wrapped these Dijon caps in PIO wrappers did it on purpose and probably received a paycheck for doing it. This is not a "whoopsie I dropped it" kind of situation. Someone disguised these Dijon caps look like PIO caps--that is a deliberate act, and the intent can be inferred from the act.
What I don't know is if they were wrapping the real PIO in their PIO wrap from the get-go... if that's the case, and I don't know, I could easily imagine that the supply chain team took a decision and didn't inform the manufacturing line.

Until someone qualified notice that they didn't update the build process to stop wrapping the Dijon cap in PIO wrapper.

It wouldn't surprise me that whoever was wrapping those don't know the difference between the 2 caps though.

It may well be a case of fraud with intent or a case of fraud by negligence.... I'm not a lawyer, so it well beyond to conclude.
 

dirocyn

Most Honored Senior Member
Jan 20, 2018
7,490
Murfreesboro, TN
What I don't know is if they were wrapping the real PIO in their PIO wrap from the get-go... if that's the case, and I don't know, I could easily imagine that the supply chain team took a decision and didn't inform the manufacturing line.

Until someone qualified notice that they didn't update the build process to stop wrapping the Dijon cap in PIO wrapper.

It wouldn't surprise me that whoever was wrapping those don't know the difference between the 2 caps though.

It may well be a case of fraud with intent or a case of fraud by negligence.... I'm not a lawyer, so it well beyond to conclude.
It's an entirely different manufacturing process, somebody was well aware. The boss says make these labels and wrap them around the yellow doodads just so. The boss knows good and well what they are making, even if some of the guys on the line don't.

I don't know which person committed the fraud, but someone did. Maybe some factory in China. Or maybe their invoice says these are Dijon caps in decorative wrapping, and the fraud came when those decorative caps were sold as real.
 

Nick L Plate

Strat-O-Master
Sep 15, 2020
554
Santa Barbara
Oh, give me a break about how everyone selling PIO caps is committing fraud. Though I do not myself care about replicating vintage guitars, quite obviously lots of people enjoy doing so (and they're not idiots; other people like classic cars, antiques, etc. etc.) and if they want to use retro technology, back off. I concentrate on the specs and values of caps, not the composition, but I also know many players and experts and makers who say otherwise, so I'm not dismissing either view, even though my choices follow my own view: that the very exact value is the most critical quality. I do think sellers of PIO stuff do need to stick with "vintage correct" rather than "scientific miracle!!!!" in their lingo.
 

Baelzebub

Dr. Stratster
Nov 1, 2019
16,288
State of Disbelief
It's an entirely different manufacturing process, somebody was well aware. The boss says make these labels and wrap them around the yellow doodads just so. The boss knows good and well what they are making, even if some of the guys on the line don't.

I don't know which person committed the fraud, but someone did. Maybe some factory in China. Or maybe their invoice says these are Dijon caps in decorative wrapping, and the fraud came when those decorative caps were sold as real.
The shop manager admitted to doing it more or less. Owner threw him under the bus and denied knowing until it was discovered by a customer. Possible, but what does that say about how much oversight is really being done?
If they have any proper inventory and accounting in place something would have shown up right away.
 

Stephen James

Strat-O-Master
Vendor Member
May 30, 2016
515
Iowa City
But...you can only access that form from a link on that TGP thread. It isn't on the 920D website...and there are still harnesses out at Sweetwater with the fake PIO caps. I would say good faith isn't really being shown by 920D.

Looks like Sweetwater pulled the ones with PiO caps from the searchable listings, but no mention of anything regarding why..
 

StratUp

Dr. Stratster
Sep 5, 2020
10,944
Altered States
Ahhh yes! SweetWater has MUCH deeper pockets than 920D.
Just Figurin'
Gene

Before you know about the fraud (your supplier has been lying to you), you can probably prevail in a lawsuit. Probably. Whether you're just better off settling vs. paying legal costs and taking possible reputation hits, debatable.

If you have reason to know that the parts are fraudulent, or should have known (like now, when it's industry buzz), and continue to sell them, then you'll lose for sure - either in court or via a much fatter settlement. You might even be open to fraud charges if it can be proven you knew it and continued to sell the parts.
 

kelia

Strat-Talker
Nov 27, 2020
181
Canada
Some clever responses here =]

What's surprising (and refreshing) is that I don't see a single one that is singing the praises of PIO caps. This sure seems like a change from 10 years ago!

Back in 2005 or so I discussed Gibson's claims that they'd returned to using CTS pots and bumblebee caps in Historic Les Pauls, with an engineer at SB Electronics (then the maker of all Orange Drops). I forget his name - Terry something - but we discussed it at some length. He was the guy you spoke with at SBE if you were having Orange Drops made. He held a master's degree in electrical engineering, and he worked with capacitors 8 hours a day, so he knew way more than you or me about them. And ironically he was a longtime guitar player, he'd been playing for 20 years or so as I recall, but he wasn't a gearhead. He had no awareness of the huge interest in old PIO caps. He was genuinely flabbergasted to learn that people were paying $100 for old PIO caps on eBay.

And of course he thought it was completely laughable that people thought these were an integral part of that sunburst LP tonal magic, that surely the caps were the least consistent component in the circuit. He was surprised to hear that Gibson was having these caps made - he said that he didn't think a customer could throw a large-enough quantity at SBE to get them to re-tool to start making PIO caps again, something they hadn't done for decades. And he suspected that Gibson hadn't found any other company to do that either. After discussing it for a few minutes he arrived at the conclusion that Gibson must have been encapsulating modern caps of one sort or another into plastic housings that looked like bumblebees. He was right, years later I saw on one of the forum sites where someone had cut one of the Gibson caps open and found a polypropylene cap inside. So this is not a new thing, many people in this industry have perpetuated myth and misinformation in the interest of profit, and surely this is done in every other market as well.
Nice post , the thread from Gearpage was called

 

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