Prewired Harness Supplier selling bogus PIO caps in their harnesses

rocknrollrich

Most Honored Senior Member
Jan 8, 2016
7,479
philadelphia
I do want to add something to the discussion. Some caps are indeed "better" than others of the same value. So in some instances, spending a few more sheckles for a "good" cap is warranted.
If I was an amp builder/repairman, I would look at a few specs that DO matter in the real world.
ESR (equivalent series resistance) is important in some applications. You want the lowest number you can buy here. A perfect cap would have zero ESR. There is of course no perfect cap, but some are definitely better than others.
The other important factor would be temperature ratings, and lifetime hours at rated voltage. You can spend more and get "better" caps in that regard.
As far as... this cap sounds better than that cap... I couldn't tell you that. "Sounds better" is a subjective term anyway, so I call bs on that. But in terms of reliability and longevity, not all caps are created equal.

In a guitar? Where we are talking millivolts, and no heat buildup? I don't think it matters at all.
 

rolandson

Dr. Stratster
Jul 13, 2015
12,851
Foothills of the Cascades
Read through this and the TGP thread. One thing is abundantly clear:
The entrepreneur who is the subject of this fraud has the IQ of a blue soap dish.

To come on a public forum in an identifiable capacity and admit to fraud is ... evidence that counsel wasn't consulted in advance of the mia culpa.

Per jdarr who claims ownership of 920D Custom
Should I have shut the business down and put my employees on unemployment or make a few substitutions here and there to keep things afloat?

You got problems einstein. Huge problems. And if you happened to have accepted any federal monies (Payroll Protection Program) as part of a scheme to perpetrate or perpetuate a fraud, those problems are a whole lot worse than the refund and labor costs for each victim of the fraud.

A. Whole. Lot. Worse.



đź–•
 

The Ballzz

Senior Stratmaster
Feb 26, 2014
2,597
LAS VEGAS , NV
I'm sorry, charging a premium for a specific, stated feature and providing something different is FRAUD, plain and simple! Whether the substituted item provides the same or even better performance is inconsequential, misrepresentation is misrepresentaion, compounded by charging extra for the item you are NOT providing!

Dishonesty is dishonesty, no matter the excuse, and this world has too much of it!

Here's a good read pdf, for fun:
 

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rolandson

Dr. Stratster
Jul 13, 2015
12,851
Foothills of the Cascades
I'm sorry, charging a premium for a specific, stated feature and providing something different is FRAUD, plain and simple! Whether the substituted item provides the same or even better performance is inconsequential, misrepresentation is misrepresentaion, compounded by charging extra for the item you are NOT providing!

Dishonesty is dishonesty, no matter the excuse, and this world has too much of it!

Here's a good read pdf, for fun:
Why?

...are you sorry? No need to apologize.

Dude saw an opportunity to cheat and swindle. Then thought a mia culpa would suffice to resurrect something he, by virture of his actions, never had; integrity.

He's admitted to engaging in a crime. Hopefully he will find out the cost is substantial.
 

G-Point

Strat-Talk Member
The best audio caps are Polypropylene and Teflon. The worst are Ceramic disks, they are even touch-sensitive, like piezo elements. The next, not the best, are paper-oil-based caps, some can be leaking. But the difference between all other kinds (including Orange Drops) is minimal. Tone caps functionally are not signal through, but signal to ground, so quality is a little bit less important. Treble bleed caps are upper frequencies signal through, but just part of the signal is going through the cap, so again, not so critical. Anyway - quality Polypropylene caps are not expensive, just cents, so worth to use them only. Much more important is the optimized capacitance of the caps.
 

mountainhick

Strat-Talk Member
Aug 6, 2014
29
Colorado rocky mountains
I do want to add something to the discussion. Some caps are indeed "better" than others of the same value. So in some instances, spending a few more sheckles for a "good" cap is warranted.
If I was an amp builder/repairman, I would look at a few specs that DO matter in the real world.
ESR (equivalent series resistance) is important in some applications. You want the lowest number you can buy here. A perfect cap would have zero ESR. There is of course no perfect cap, but some are definitely better than others.
The other important factor would be temperature ratings, and lifetime hours at rated voltage. You can spend more and get "better" caps in that regard.
As far as... this cap sounds better than that cap... I couldn't tell you that. "Sounds better" is a subjective term anyway, so I call bs on that. But in terms of reliability and longevity, not all caps are created equal.

In a guitar? Where we are talking millivolts, and no heat buildup? I don't think it matters at all.
A good ESR meter can be useful to help determine whether an electrolytic filter cap needs replacement. As an electrolytic fails, it's resistance will change prior to complete failure.

I've found no real documented benefits to expensive "Low ESR caps" in guitar related amplification. They apparently can be relevant in microprocessor circuitry, but guitar amplification is in no way as sensitive as microprocessors!

Is low ESR "better"? , Sure, but what are you going to shell out for something that you don't actually even hear, or if audible may amount to a .01% difference? With billionaire audiophiles you may hear the same arguments as for every other component in the chain, but speaker choice will still trump something like ESR. And in guitar amp circuitry...???

I agree on the other points though for temp and lifetime hour ratings. Shopping and comparing specs on sites like Mouser can be enlightening. I've found in many cases you can get a higher temp rating and double to 10 times the lifetime hours on some electrolytics for the same price or only pennies more.
 

BuddhaFingas

Senior Stratmaster
Feb 16, 2019
1,913
Chino Hills, CA
I do want to add something to the discussion. Some caps are indeed "better" than others of the same value. So in some instances, spending a few more sheckles for a "good" cap is warranted.
If I was an amp builder/repairman, I would look at a few specs that DO matter in the real world.
ESR (equivalent series resistance) is important in some applications. You want the lowest number you can buy here. A perfect cap would have zero ESR. There is of course no perfect cap, but some are definitely better than others.
The other important factor would be temperature ratings, and lifetime hours at rated voltage. You can spend more and get "better" caps in that regard.
As far as... this cap sounds better than that cap... I couldn't tell you that. "Sounds better" is a subjective term anyway, so I call bs on that. But in terms of reliability and longevity, not all caps are created equal.

In a guitar? Where we are talking millivolts, and no heat buildup? I don't think it matters at all.
Yes, and also: in none of those categoies is paper-in-oil construction going to excel.

Which is why it's an obsolete technology for nearly all applications absent emotional/nostalgic consideration.

If I was going to go nostalgic about tech, I'd want silver/mica caps... but they were probably too expensive for guitar use (and can be piezo), so PIO was used instead.
 

The Ballzz

Senior Stratmaster
Feb 26, 2014
2,597
LAS VEGAS , NV
I've used this company in four guitars now with zero issues. This sounds like an agenda or vendetta. Not good.

I don't think anyone has disparaged the "quality" of the services or even components provided, but instead the misrepresentation and premium price hike of some of the actual components, surrounding that misrepresentation. Our societal leaders have set the stage for allowing and promoting dishonesty to be acceptable.
Generally Disgusted,
Gene
 

rolandson

Dr. Stratster
Jul 13, 2015
12,851
Foothills of the Cascades
I've used this company in four guitars now with zero issues. This sounds like an agenda or vendetta. Not good.
Have you read the mia culpa on TGP's thread?


The "company" admits to disguising the advertised components to perpetrate a fraud, and charging a premium price for them. Then goes on to justify the fraud.

This is no different buying what is advertised as a custom shop strat and peeling back the covering to find a Squier underneath.

This is neither vendetta or an agenda. It's about something far deeper.
 

Chipss36

Senior Stratmaster
Oct 1, 2018
1,431
Texas
A good ESR meter can be useful to help determine whether an electrolytic filter cap needs replacement. As an electrolytic fails, it's resistance will change prior to complete failure.

I've found no real documented benefits to expensive "Low ESR caps" in guitar related amplification. They apparently can be relevant in microprocessor circuitry, but guitar amplification is in no way as sensitive as microprocessors!

Is low ESR "better"? , Sure, but what are you going to shell out for something that you don't actually even hear, or if audible may amount to a .01% difference? With billionaire audiophiles you may hear the same arguments as for every other component in the chain, but speaker choice will still trump something like ESR. And in guitar amp circuitry...???

I agree on the other points though for temp and lifetime hour ratings. Shopping and comparing specs on sites like Mouser can be enlightening. I've found in many cases you can get a higher temp rating and double to 10 times the lifetime hours on some electrolytics for the same price or only pennies more.
Esr, for the most part, on small value capacitors can not even be read by most esr meters, even my stancore capacitor analyzer will not, one exception is the blue esr meter.
but in order to make sense of small value cap esr data.
you have to keep a spreadsheet, on many values that are known good. And determine what’s a bad reading, It’s complicated, but can be done, i have done it. With vintage coupling caps. For instance.
the reading of electronic leakage can be done on any size cap. And would be a better and way more easy, way to check for small value capacitor heath. In addition to the standard value checks.
all this has nothing to do with fraud however. It’s just kind of an area I know a little something about.
 

Eric_G

Senior Stratmaster
Jan 10, 2021
3,490
Quebec
Have you read the mia culpa on TGP's thread?


The "company" admits to disguising the advertised components to perpetrate a fraud, and charging a premium price for them. Then goes on to justify the fraud.

This is no different buying what is advertised as a custom shop strat and peeling back the covering to find a Squier underneath.

This is neither vendetta or an agenda. It's about something far deeper.
Not sure if you went back but the CEO has now posted on that TGP thread. I can't believe that 920D keeps fueling the issue. Can a good legal rep tell these guys to shut up.

BTW, from the CEO note, the Jimmy Darr fellow's job might be at risk...

As for admitting that they did so to perpetrate a fraud, I didn't read it this way. I saw admittance of making a mistake to substitute a component and not paying attention to the product description. Is this intent to fraud or negligence, hard to tell, but definitely not right.

For sure wrapping those Dijon in 920D PIO is not looking good for them and could lead one to think of intent. However, unless this is a one man operation, I can imagine many scenarios that this situation is negligence.

I think for intent, we would need to have evidence that someone ask "Should we still wrap the Dijon in the PIO wrapper" and someone telling them to shut up, or something of that nature....

I also don't see it as an agenda or a vendetta, I think that's a clear case of a company that did consumers wrong and someone who discovered it.

To be clear, you may be right on intent, I'm just putting out my point of view which is only slightly different than yours, intent vs negligence...

We both agree that this is terribly wrong....
 


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