How important is the body of a Strat in the production of sound?

[dirocyn]

As the cells dry out, they retain their shape excepting most cedars, many becoming chambers filled with air, because trees do not exist in a vacuum.

The question is, what affect do these small chambers have on the resonant characteristics of the wood?

Yes, the rigid cell walls largely maintain their shape as they dry out. I expect there's some size changing at a cellular level, the wood itself changes size considerably as it dries, especially across the grain.

The chambers left by the rigid cell walls would make very effective sound insulation (think styrofoam) to block, absorb and deaden essentailly all waves that are less than twice the size of the chamber (the cell). Plant cells generally fall in the range of 10-100 micrometers, so...wavelengths in the 0.02mm range and smaller. Apply that with the speed of sound (for convenience I calculate based on 20C air) we'd get wavelengths of 17,150,000Hz. The chambers would have no effect on longer wavelengths. The generally given maximum frequency humans can hear is 20,000Hz, so this is not something we're going to hear anyway.

The wood's chambers being filled with air vs. water DOES have an impact on the resonance of the piece of wood as a whole--because it changes its density, the speeds of sound within the wood, and also the hardness/flexibility of the wood.

 

[vivanchenko]

@ Jerseystratfiend - what's so funny?

 

[Stealthracer]

A pickup is a magnetic device. It 'hears' metal, not wood.
'Tonewoods' is unscientific rubbish. For the sake of your sanity, ignore it.

 

[vivanchenko]

A pickup is a magnetic device. It 'hears' metal, not wood.
'Tonewoods' is unscientific rubbish. For the sake of your sanity, ignore it.

And so are microphones. How come they "hear" the vibration of vocal cords?

 

[StratUp]

A pickup is a magnetic device. It 'hears' metal, not wood.
'Tonewoods' is unscientific rubbish. For the sake of your sanity, ignore it.

The caveat I will add is that resonance / materials in the guitars components is a factor in how the strings vibrate. So clearly that has an effect. Picture a guitar with rubber saddles. Let me know how it sounds through the pickups. In addition, some pickups are microphonic. PAF's, the old ones that people love, are highly microphonic (unpotted). They pick up what happens in the body. Are those vibrations the primary sound? No. But do they color it? Yes.

There was a poster here... unfortunately I forget who. He has two Gibson SG's. Identical in every way except that one has tight, regular mahogany grain and the other has more burl looking grain. The tight grained one is much brighter. I know what you're thinking... it's the electronics. He wanted to know, so he swapped all the electronics. The tight grained wood one was still brighter.

FWIW, sound transmission through tighter grained woods in m/s can be as high as 5000 m/s for a tight grained wood. That's as high as copper (above some) and above brass. OTOH, looser grained or other woods can be as low as 3300 m/s. That's only 40% above nylon. That transfer of sound affects string movement in complex ways.

 

[rolandson]

Plant cells generally fall in the range of 10-100 micrometers, so...wavelengths in the 0.02mm range and smaller.

That's really small isn't it...so small that there are a monstrously huge number of them within the plant. Which begs the question, can the affect of this be cumulative?

And, what is that effect?

We're back to the original question regarding resonance and the overall sound of a stringed instrument. Is a highly resonant piece of wood conducive to desirable characteristics in solid body electric guitars?

I don't know the answer to that question.

The conditions and mechanics that make an acoustic instrument desirable are very different than those of a solid...
Everything from shape and flexibility of the top contribute greatly.

Personally I think it's fascinating, and would make for an interesting graduate thesis. I have yet to find the data relating to this stuff quantified in a manner that is definitive and given the interest, I think that's surprising.

 

[BamaStrat]

I also sanded the paint off of one of my strats and set it in the sun outside for about 2 weeks in about 40% humidity. It sounds more open and better, but not by as much as I thought it would.

That's hardcore right there! Aging the wood. I'm kind of glad it didnt make much of a difference so I won't be tempted to try it haha.

 

[Jerseystratfiend]

@ Jerseystratfiend - what's so funny?

Hey Vivan... sorry, just the debate goes on and on... I agree it makes a difference, but so many other factors too affect the sound acoustically and electronically, it is hard to control for everything? I have three electrics, one ash, one sapele, one poplar... all sound different plugged in and unplugged but all different gutars. But i think generalisations can perhaps be made... etc etc etc etx haha

 

[Can of Beans]

And so are microphones. How come they "hear" the vibration of vocal cords?

Microphones pick up the waves in the air that are produced by the singing.

 

[Can of Beans]

The body does make some difference in the tone of an electric guitar because even though an electromagnetic pickup only picks up the disturbance of a vibrating string in its field (setting aside any microphonic effects), the vibration of the string is in turn affected by what it is anchored to, including the saddles, the body and its rigidity, mass, resonance, and whether your six pack or fat gut is mashing against it at the time.

 

[dirocyn]

That's really small isn't it...so small that there are a monstrously huge number of them within the plant. Which begs the question, can the affect of this be cumulative?

And, what is that effect?

Maybe, but I suspect not in a way that's relevant to human hearing or instruments. Suppose you wanted to pass the sound of a hammer tap through two steel I-beams that are connected together with a wooden board, as opposed to another section of steel. That might produce a measurable difference that would allow you to see whether a cumulative effect exists. I haven't thought of any kind of useful application for this, however.

We're back to the original question regarding resonance and the overall sound of a stringed instrument. Is a highly resonant piece of wood conducive to desirable characteristics in solid body electric guitars?

I don't know the answer to that question.

It's not just a question of being resonant, but the frequency of the resonance. When solid objects vibrate in 3 dimensions, which means they resonate in at least 3 different frequencies. If one of those frequencies happens to resonate in opposition to the string vibration, you get a dead note. That's not a good thing.

The conditions and mechanics that make an acoustic instrument desirable are very different than those of a solid...
Everything from shape and flexibility of the top contribute greatly.

Personally I think it's fascinating, and would make for an interesting graduate thesis. I have yet to find the data relating to this stuff quantified in a manner that is definitive and given the interest, I think that's surprising.

Agreed, this stuff is fascinating to me.

 

[rolandson]

It's not just a question of being resonant, but the frequency of the resonance.

That was the basis of the thinking regarding transducers, signal generators and waveform analytics...the ability to quantify across a broad spectrum.

All too often this discussion gets lost in assumptions. Lacking any empirical data makes such seem like a painful exercise in proctology.

I once watched a luthier carve a top for a violin. It took him three days of shaping with a blade, dragging it over the wood to shave a micron off at a time. All the while he was describing why. He could feel how the instrument would sound with his fingertips. It was mesmerizing.

Solids aren't like that, but the intricacies of sound and vibration are no less involved.

It would be nice for something concrete.

 

[mad axe man]

absolutely body wood makes a difference..tone searching is fun and i love it

 

[mad axe man]

A pickup is a magnetic device. It 'hears' metal, not wood.
'Tonewoods' is unscientific rubbish. For the sake of your sanity, ignore it.

why do acoustics have tone wood and electrics don't?

 

[PonyB]

why do acoustics have tone wood and electrics don't?

Because it makes a difference in acoustics.
Electrics, not so much.

 

[StratSounds]

 

[Fenderbaum]

In sound?
Zero
In sustain and response:
Everything

 

[Hazard Nova]

I wasn't around for the previous 632 threads in which this topic was debated, but I've been following this one and it seems pretty thorough. How does it compare to those? Also I'm curious if the OP (@tomartist) ever got enough of the info he was looking for.

 

[rogb]

The caveat I will add is that resonance / materials in the guitars components is a factor in how the strings vibrate. So clearly that has an effect. Picture a guitar with rubber saddles. Let me know how it sounds through the pickups. In addition, some pickups are microphonic. PAF's, the old ones that people love, are highly microphonic (unpotted). They pick up what happens in the body. Are those vibrations the primary sound? No. But do they color it? Yes.

There was a poster here... unfortunately I forget who. He has two Gibson SG's. Identical in every way except that one has tight, regular mahogany grain and the other has more burl looking grain. The tight grained one is much brighter. I know what you're thinking... it's the electronics. He wanted to know, so he swapped all the electronics. The tight grained wood one was still brighter.

FWIW, sound transmission through tighter grained woods in m/s can be as high as 5000 m/s for a tight grained wood. That's as high as copper (above some) and above brass. OTOH, looser grained or other woods can be as low as 3300 m/s. That's only 40% above nylon. That transfer of sound affects string movement in complex ways.

I definitely agree with this. I make my own pickups and they are all microphonic to some degree due to light or zero potting.

They certainly pick up some body sound and guitars I have assembled with different woods have sounded different. Not if you squirt the signal through a gazillion effects but through a simple circuit with a touch of reverb.

2 guitars I remember really sounded "alive" for want of a better word.
#1 USACG Tele style. Swamp ash body. 2 piece huge maple neck. Callaham hardware and 50s style Broadcaster set. A3 bridge 43AWG wire steel plate light wax potting and A5 neck nitro potting. Sounded unlike any Tele I ever played. Alive acoustically and plugged in.
#2 USACG Strat style swamp ash and 1 piece maple neck. Callaham hardware. A5 nitro potted pickups.
Both guitars just a few coats of nitro.
The body did influence the sound, I find factory vacuum potted pickups lifeless.

My PGK Les Paul has a massive neck and my own unpotted PAFs. It also sounds much different to a lot of LPs I've played except the real 58 I based it on...

 

[PonyB]

I wasn't around for the previous 632 threads in which this topic was debated, but I've been following this one and it seems pretty thorough. How does it compare to those? Also I'm curious if the OP (@tomartist) ever got enough of the info he was looking for.

On the International Vitriol Scale (IVS), threads #78 and #328 top this one.
I'm convinced the next thread will get to the crux of the matter.